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1. The snowball Trinity versus the Father Almighty

The snowball Trinity versus the Father Almighty Who is the real God? A tri nity of persons (The Trinity) or just one person, the F at h...

Saturday, 20 December 2014

130. Vaiting for answers (Varvan "Gabor" velemenyet)

Vaiting for answers (Varvan "Gabor" velemenyet)


Gábor szerint:
Kedves János
A pontok, amiket felsoroltál valóban problémát jelentenek, de azért az okból, mert nem ismerik a Szentírás ezekre vonatkozó kijelentéseit és nem azért mert nem hisznek a lélekalvásban.
A hozzászólásod első felén már én is gondolkodtam, hogy a helytelen ismeret (más alapvetőbb kérdésekben – bár ki dönti el, hogy mi számít annak), helytelen hitet eredményez és ez nem zár-e ki a mennyből.


Kedves Gabor,

A Biblia szovegenek a helyes forditasa lenyegretoro es eletfontossagu az ilyen szelsosegek elkerulese vegett. Nos, kedves felebaratom, Gabor, ha Adam meg megengedi, feltennem neked a kovetkezo kerdest: Tudsz angolul? Gondolom igen, mivel egy angol nyelvu linket ajanlottal. Ezek szerint el tudtad olvasni az angol anyagot amit itt bemuatattam a Lk 23:43-al kapcsolatban? Gondolom igen. Kerlek reagalj erre az anyagra:
Re: Luke 23:43 – Where does the comma go?

Szerintem a ketto osszevag es ha nem lenne a lelekhalhatatlansaganak hite, ezek sem lennenek, mert van ok es okozat, az ok a lelekhalhatatlansag es az okozat a felsorolt dolgok.
Igazsagtalan dolog, ezt a hitet (a lelekhalalt) adventista vagy jehovista alapnak nevezni, mondom ezt mivel latom forgolodtal exjt jtsek kozott. Egyfelol a jehovistak az adventistaktol vettek at, masfelol az exadventista DM Canright szerint a soul-sleep tanat a szombattarto adventistak a vasarnaptarto adventistaktol vettek at, ezek pedig George Storrs altal egy angliai baptistatol, mar a "nagy csalodas" elott 1842-ben. De ez csak reszben igaz, mivel mas forrasokbol is ihletodtek, pl William Millert egy kriasztadelfianus leader gyozte meg 1844 utan, egy masik forras pedig a Hetednapi Baptistak voltak, akik kozul nehanyan attertek az adventistakhoz, magukkal hozva regi hituket, amelyt mar a hetednapos Oswald Glait-tol (1490-1546)orokoltek. Kalvin Janos Genfi vallasdiktator ket dolog miatt gyulolte a kornyeke anabaptistait, amiert tagadtak az altala magyarazott lelekhalhatatlansagot es amiert elvetettek a csecsemokeresztseget. Nezz csak be ide:
 The Last hymn of Georg "Blaurock" 1529

(He also advocating soul sleeping until God's Kingdom:
My soul I leave in God's great Hand,
Until Your Kingdom, sleeping. (167, 8))


God will be judge in righteousness
With no one Him gainsaying;
His will, not ours, will be the test,
His sentence just pronouncing.

His Word does prove the hearts of men,
All seekers true converting;
Believe that Word and be baptized,
Obey your daily reading.

He marks you out from all mankind,
From Sin's grim power releases;
And for the wayward, godless, blind,
Their sad affliction ceases.

And so, Zion, God's people called,
Show all you have been given;
You will obtain a glorious crown,
With all your sins forgiven.

The Last great Day comes hastening on,
It warns us to be watching;
So help us, Lord, to bear the cross,
Your holy Purpose matching.

O Lord, direct us by Your grace;
And on Your love depending,
May Providence our lives control
Your Mighty Hand defending.

And as I now must part from friends,
From brothers, sisters weeping;
My soul I leave in God's great Hand,
Until Your Kingdom, sleeping. (167, 8)

TRANS. A.E.
http://www.antipas.org/books/brethren_in_christ/binc_insets/blaurock_inset.html

Nos, akkor hogyan lehet vilagga kurtolni - foleg az exjehovistakat oktatoktol, hogy akik a soul-sleep tanat valjak az adventista hit-alapbol veszik? Akkor Devai Biro Matyas, "Magyarorszag Luthere", Oscar Cullman, "A papak tanacsadoja" es mas nevezetes szemelyisegek az andentista alapbol ihletodtek? Mert, mint Denis Diderot enciklikaja mondja, ez a hit mar megvolt a masodik szazadban, ugyanis az univerzalis megmentes (apokasztaszisz) es a tisztitotuz (purgatorium) apostola, az utolso nagy gnosztikus, Origenesz, tobb alkalommal jart Arabia Petraba, hogy a osi keresztyenek igaz hitet lerontsa. Jeruzsalem elpusztitasa elotti idoben (70) a zsidokeresztyenek Pella videkere menekultek a Jordan tulso oldalara. Ez pedig kozel van az Arabia Petra tartomany Bocra nevu varosahoz. Itt vivta meg csatait az utolso nagy gnosztikus, Origenesz, a lelekhalhatatlansag oldalan. De vajon Origenesz helyesen hasogatta az iget a lelekhalhatatlansag mellett, ha ket kulcsfontossagu dologban annyira messze ment, hirdetve az univerzalis megmentes es a tisztitotuz (purgatorium) tanat?

Akkor Gabor, Adam engedelmevel, ha o megengedi nekunk a disputa tovabbi folytatasat, kerlek erre reagalj:
Re: Luke 23:43 – Where does the comma go?

John Albu (rt20@columbia.edu)
Fri, 2 Aug 1996 00:13:58 -0400

For the punctuation marks in Luke 23:43, three possibilities have been offered: to put a comma before the word “today,” to put it after “today,” or to put a comma both before and after “today.” — See “Understanding and Translating ‘Today’ in Luke 23.43,” by J. Hong, published in “The Bible Translator,” Vol. 46, 1995, pp. 408-417.

Early Greek manuscripts had no punctuation, but occasionally it is found in some MSS, and this is the case here, where B (the Vatican 1209) has a lower point ((hypostigme) after semeron. Regarding the punctuation used by this MS, it was noted that in general “B has the higher point as a period, the lower point for a shorter pause.” (A. T. Robertson, “A Grammar of the Greek New Testament,” Nashville, 1934, p. 242) The ink of the uncial letters in codex B was at one time a faded brown color, and in a later century a scribe traced over many of the letters and punctuation marks.
However, in Luke 23:43 the ink of the lower point is the same as the letters of the text, and thus it can be traced back to the fourth century C.E.

The Vatican 1209 uses punctuation marks also in other places. Thus, at Romans 8:5, ABCL and 26 cursives have a point after sarka.

Does anybody know any MS that displays some kind of punctuation in Luke 23:43, beside the Vatican 1209?

The Curetonian Syriac (fifth century C.E.) renders Luke 23:43: “Amen, I say to thee to-day that with me thou shalt be in the Garden of Eden.'”–F. C. Burkitt, “The Curetonian Version of the Four Gospels,” Vol. I, Cambridge, 1904.

Below I am quoting from several Greek sources, in transliteration and providing an English translation. I would appreciate if improvements would be offered for the English renderings.

Tines men houtos anaginoskousin* _Amen lego soi semeron*_ kai hypostizousin* eita epipherousin, hotiet’ emou ese e to paradeiso._
(“Some indeed read this way: ‘Truly I tell you today,’ and put a comma;
then they add: ‘You will be with me in Paradise.'” –Hesychius of Jerusalem, an ecclessiastical writer who died about 434 C.E. Greek text found in Patrologia Graeca, Vol. 93, columns 432, 1433.

Alloi de ekbiazontai to rhema, stizontes eis to <> hin’ e to
legomenon toiouton* <> eita to, <> epipherontes. (“But others press upon the saying,
putting a punctuation mark after ‘today,’ so that it would be said
this way: ‘Truly I tell you today'; and then they add the expression:
‘You will be with me in Paradise.'”)–Theophylact, an ecclessistical
writer who died about 1112 C.E. Edition: Patrologia Graeca, Vol. 123,
column 1104.

alloi — to rheton ekbiazontai* legousin gar dein hypostizontas (254:
hypostizantas) anaginoskein* amen lego soi semeron*>> eith’ houtos
epipherein to* met’ emou ese etc. (“Others press upon what is spoken;
for they say it must read by putting a comma thus: ‘Truly I tell you
today,’ and then adding the expression this way: ‘You will be with me’
etc.”)–Scholia 237, 239, 254. Text found in Novum Testamentum Graece,
editio octava critica maior, by C. Tischendorf, Vol. I, Leipzig, 1869,
under Luke 23:43.

kai eutys eipen moi hoti amen amen semeron lego soi, met’ emou ese en
to parad[eiso]. (“And immediately he said to me: ‘Most truly today
I tell you, You will be with me in Paradise.'”)–Descent into Hades,
an apocryphal writing of the fourth century C.E. Text found in Novum
Testamentum Graece, editio octava critica maior, by C. Tischendorf, Vol. I, Leipzig,869, under Luke 23:43.

ho de eipen auto* semeron lego soi aletheian hina se ekho eis ton
parad[eison] met’ emou. (“And he said to him: ‘Today I tell you the
truth, that I should have you in Paradise with me.'”)–Gospel of
Nicodemus (=Acts of Pilate)b287, an apocryphal writing of the fourth
or fifth century C.E. Text found in Novum Testamentum Graece, editio
octava critica maior, by C. Tischendorf, Vol. I, Leipzig, 1869, under
Luke 23:43.

Therefore, at least from the fourth century C.E. until well into the
twelfth century C.E. there were readers who understood the text at Luke
23:43 as “Truly I tell you today, You will be with me in Paradise.” On
that very day, when Jesus died, he was in Sheol or Hades, and not in
Paradise. (Psalms 16:8-11; Acts 2:22-32) He was dead and in the tomb
until the third day and was then resurrected as “the firstfruits” of the resurrection. (Acts 10:40; 1 Corinthians 15:20; Colossians 1:18) Thus, the word “today” at Luke 23:43 does not give the time of the evildoer’s being with Jesus in Paradise.
http://divinity.szabadosadam.hu/?p=4545&cpage=1#comment-12958

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